Fabrizio Gamberini: Leading with Curiosity, Hiring for Attitude (Vibram, Marcolin, Nike, HP)

[00:00:00] Roy Notowitz: Hello and welcome to How I Hire, the podcast that taps directly into the best executive hiring advice and insights. I'm Roy Notowitz, founder and CEO of Noto Group Executive Search. You can learn more about us at notogroup.com. As a go-to firm for purpose-driven companies, we've been lucky to work with some of the world's most inspiring leaders as they've tackled the challenge of building high performance leadership teams.

Now I'm sitting down with some of these very leaders to spark a conversation about how to achieve success in hiring and create purposeful leadership for the next generation of companies.

Fabrizio Gamberini is the President and Global Chief Brand Officer of Vibram Corporation. Before joining Vibram, Fabrizio held roles at major brands like Nike and HP. In addition, he led large-scale restructuring and brand development for companies like Geox and Marcolin. Fabrizio and I talk about leading through cycles of consumer change, key lessons he's learned about hiring and building teams, and how to attract value and mission aligned candidates.

Fabrizio, thank you for joining me. It's great to have you here.

[00:01:16] Fabrizio Gamberini: Thank you, Roy. Thank you so much.

[00:01:19] Roy Notowitz: So if you could take us back to the beginning, what was your first spark of interest in the industry and how did that evolve into the career that it's become for you?

[00:01:30] Fabrizio Gamberini: I would start with the idea that a curious boy from Bologna, Italy in 1991, once graduated in college decided instead of working locally, I decided to work for a global company, and specifically I ended up in HP, Hewlett Packard. In Italy, they implanted a subsidiary division that was mainly managed by US leadership team, and I was able to get a job just three months after the degree in college and leaving the city Roy.

And going to Milano, being in a different culture, different environment for an Italian person is a very big deal. And I made that choice again because of the curiosity, the idea that I had I wanted to invest on myself, and instead of working close by, I wanted to see what big corporation can do and in HP, it was amazing because again, US leadership, so the main division was actually in Boise, Idaho.

[00:02:35] Roy Notowitz: Wow.

[00:02:36] Fabrizio Gamberini: So think, for an Italian boy ending up in Boise, Idaho in '92, '93 doing business trips, I was like, "wow, what is this?" But step by step, I actually ended up learning about Boise, I ended up learning about not only the job, but also the environment to a point where in '95, in October '95, I ended up taking a remote or full-time position in the North American Marketing Center in Boise, Idaho. So this was the North American Marketing Center for all the HP printers. So think about all the laserjet printers. They were all marketed, let's say, out of Boise, Idaho. There was a campus of 88-- 9,000 people over there.

[00:03:19] Roy Notowitz: They were known for their leadership and their culture, right, being very progressive and great at developing people into leadership roles. Is that right?

[00:03:28] Fabrizio Gamberini: Yes. I think HP made a huge impression on me and the amazing, uh, culture of HP had a huge effect on me. So they called it the HP way at the time, and HP way was a set of rules that as soon as you get in, you kind of are, uh, immersed, fully immersed on a daily basis. HP way means, uh, a few things: focusing on high achievement, means, uh, conducting business with integrity, means, uh, achieving what you're trying to achieve through teamwork. Flexibility, actually to a point where in HP, like in other companies that ended up, if you were not changing your job every two, three years, you were not on the rising ladder, let's say.

And so this culture really related to people, around people in HP was amazing. It was an amazing experience for a young newly graduated person to be exposed to such a focus on people, on interpersonal skills, investing in yourself. I was able to do through HP amazing classes in Harvard, in Columbia because they were really investing in the person and the leadership skills that are necessary to the person. That is part of their job. Something that of course I ended up using later on in my career.

[00:04:52] Roy Notowitz: I always love where people start in their career because it has such an imprint that first five years, you know, in terms of the foundation. That sort of guides the rest of their career. It's a really powerful thing and I was thinking about the HP way. Do you still think about those things in your day to day now, or what have you done with those core beliefs or those values in terms of your own leadership playbook?

[00:05:20] Fabrizio Gamberini: I try to mention this when I hire people. When you end up in a new company, you bring skills, you bring an attitude that you develop along the way, but also you bring a toolbox and the toolbox is made of all the experiences and all the learning that you add, whatever they are good or bad. From HP, I got this big corporate culture. It was necessary also for my second step that was in Nike, because if I didn't have, maybe my experience in Nike would be a little more difficult. Nike is a big corporation and I spent there almost 10 years. In the moment in which Nike really doubled, triple the results.

[00:06:05] Roy Notowitz: So what were the beliefs or values or aspects of Nike that you found to be most useful or interesting, or that shaped your leadership even further?

[00:06:17] Fabrizio Gamberini: Nike was amazing uh, Roy, I was lucky enough because, uh, I ended up through, I would say specifically four people. Having probably the best mentorship ever that you can have. I was hired in Nike, actually by Elliott Hill that currently is the CEO for Nike. From the beginning, I remember I came back, uh thinking, holy crap, this guy is, he can go through people like he's unbelievable. The emotional intelligence of this gentleman is unbelievable. He can become your friend in 30 seconds and you will do everything for him because he has a way of treating, uh, every single person from the janitor up to the senior VP in exactly in the same way.

[00:07:00] Roy Notowitz: Truly.

[00:07:01] Fabrizio Gamberini: The second one that was very interesting was, uh, Pat Zeedick. Pat was the person very close to Charlie Danson. She was a sales manager in the US and then became a equipment, uh, VP in Nike in Europe. And Pat was another amazing business leader, very attentive, and that's one of the things that I learned in Nike: not only the teamwork, but the attention to the people. Like she knew my wife, she knew my preferred vacation.

She knew pretty much the entire team, good and bad stuff. She was an amazing for me North Star to reach. She was very savvy, very good business sense, and I definitely learned a lot from her. Uh, another person that actually was in my opinion, very strong in my kind of learning in Nike, was Mary Kate Buckley.

Mary Kate Buckley was the senior VP for America. She became like really almost a friend, and again, part of leadership, uh, in my opinion is about also learning about the people because you need to establish a level of truth and a level of trust. That is coming also from being with them and observing them, working with them, understanding what they're driven from.

I think Mary Kate was very strong in this one. She knew really how to touch people in some way and really get to where we needed to be. Bologna was the headquarters of Nike, Italy. So that's why actually from HP I ended up leaving to go back to Bologna for a couple of years and knowing that I was coming back to the US. So it was a kind of a temporary project to go to Europe, and the person that got me over there is Matthew Cook.

Matthew Cook was the GM of Italy, Nike, Italy. But the way in which Matthew welcomed me and helped me in establishing myself in Nike in the right way, through the right connection, understanding what is driving in Nike. So

I think he is, uh, one of the people that, uh, ended up really paving the road, if I can say, because then after that, clearly my career ended up, uh, developing pretty fast back in the US. So these four people really gave me a very good platform to where I am today and where I ended up actually after Nike, because I ended up in an eyewear company. So totally different from HP, to Nike and to Marcolin.

So I ended up, uh, with a platform that really HP and Nike gave me. When we talk about leadership, when we talk about people management, when we talk about hiring, when we talk about, uh, driving performance, Nike, how strong is at driving growth. So again, I go back to the toolbox I was mentioning before and I went to this new company, Marcolin, with a toolbox full of ideas full of, uh experiences that I started to use at that time.

[00:09:50] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, I think that's when we met was around that time.

[00:09:54] Fabrizio Gamberini: I think so, yes.

[00:09:55] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. So you have this great career journey and leadership philosophy that you've developed and you've led through cycles of massive consumer change. So I'm just curious, what are the few things that you took or that you used to navigate this ever-changing market dynamic and the shifting consumer behaviors and all the intense competition and just the challenges and the opportunities that exist within a dynamic market?

[00:10:25] Fabrizio Gamberini: Well, I have one rule that is still valid today that I try to tell my team and my current team too, that is get out. Behind the PC, behind the desk you're not going to be able to do a lot. You need to be in front of customers. You need to be in front of consumers, you need to be in retail. And uh, I think it's so important because it gives you an idea of what consumers are looking for, and especially in all these changes that we saw in the last few years between the crisis of 2008 and then going through COVID and then going through all the up and downs that are part of the normal economy.

If you don't keep up with what consumers are looking for, trends, you risk to be out in a very fast way. Think about the, I always use the example of the Blackberry or the Polaroid or Kodak situation.

[00:11:18] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, that's interesting. So when you think about the growth in the impact that you've driven across major brands like Nike and Marcolin and Vibram, what role has talent played and what have you learned about hiring and building teams along the way?

[00:11:35] Fabrizio Gamberini: A huge role. My drive and my passion, my energy is nothing if you don't have the right talent within, uh, the organization. I think what is important is, uh, to give a clear purpose, a clear direction, and then from there, try to assemble the team that will be able to execute on the vision in the right way.

It is simple to say, it is on the papers in every business book. The reality, as you know, is very different. You have people that are part of the organization maybe since a while, and they see things in a certain way. You have people that you are hiring. The hiring piece is very difficult. There is not a golden rule.

There is not a formula for which if you apply the formula, you will get the right person. Hiring is extremely difficult. I still say when I talk with some of the, the friends that are asking for advice, all my mentors hiring is a 50/50. You have people that are doing an amazing job acting within brackets and showing themself in a perfect way.

Then the moment in which things are going south, they don't know what to do or the moment in which they receive pressure. Remember, pressure is a very good thing if you're able to handle pressure. Pressure can crack you, and the higher you go, the more responsibility you have, the more the pressure is. I see sometimes, especially in the young generation, people that are scrambling, "I want to be responsible for this one. I want to be the leader for that one." Be careful. Because when you are there, the weight on your shoulder is so big that you need to be able to handle because otherwise it will push you down in a big way. And then at the point you go in a kind of a panic mode, you don't know anymore what to do.

So going back to the things that we are doing as a team. So clearly hiring right, very important because you need to assemble the team in the right way. If you want to make traction, you need to have the right team. And this is what, honestly, this is what I did, uh, probably less in HP, clearly because I was part of the team, maybe less in Nike. Maybe the last portion of my Nike journey was definitely more finding the right people. Especially in the countries that I wanted to play with me, but clearly both in Marcolin, in private equity, as well as right now in Vibram. It's very critical for me to have the right team, and it's very critical to have the right people that I can trust, people that, uh, also can cover areas that I'm not strong on because reality, one of the biggest mistake, uh, Roy, and we discussed this when I leverage on your agency too in the past, you don't want to hire a copy of yourself. The first thing that you want to hire is a person that will fill up the kind of the hole that you have in your team.

Another rule that I use in the hiring process, I try immediately to understand if these people are part of the "why not" instead of the "yes, but." "Why not" is an attitude that you have. And, uh, sometimes I tell people, you should almost write close to your monitor, "why not? Why don't we try this one? Why don't we test this one and then we'll see. We'll adjust along the way." The "yes, but," especially in people, I think when you go in an organization that has been around for a while and you have critical people that maybe saw already a couple of other managers coming in, a couple of other CEO coming in, and they look at you as like, yes, we did it already, but it doesn't work. You need to be able to fight that stuff and you need to have a drive that, uh, will overcome that situation. And this is something that I learned actually in private equity. My boss, Giovanni Zoppas, that is uh, still a very good friend, is one of the things that he told me he learned in consulting. They were really dividing people in "yes, but" people, and then the people that were more on the "why not." And really creating organization based upon that. And it's totally true. 100% true for me.

I was mentioning before attitude and skills. That's the other thing when you hire a new person, you look at the attitude and you look at skills. It's an interesting proposition. Sometimes you need so badly the skills that you're willing to overcome the attitude piece. And uh, the more you go forward, the more you learn skills can be teached, you can educate a person in pretty much most of the things. Whatever is sales, whatever is marketing, whatever is finance, whatever is HR.

Especially if you are able to set up the person in the right way, you can give lots of help from a skills development standpoint. The thing that I learned along the way, and I still make mistakes today, Roy, is that sometimes you understate an attitude, a person that uh, will not fit in the team will always want to have the last word, will always look top down. Also, the other members and the company itself that is paying a salary. This is not healthy. If the person is not right, move on. If the personality doesn't fit, it's almost better, much better to remove the person because it's not a fit for him, for her, and for the company.

[00:17:06] Roy Notowitz: What about coaching? Have you seen people evolve with the help of someone like a leadership coach? What's been your experience?

[00:17:13] Fabrizio Gamberini: Yes and no. It depends on the person. There is a person that has been working with me that, uh despite the lack of skills in a specific area through coaching and specifically an external coaching, we were able to put this person in a very good position to a point where we started actually to learn about pocket of strength of this person that we didn't realize before.

So this person, step by step, ended up establishing himself in a very good way. Honestly, something that I was not able to do by myself. I needed the help from outside to really drill down and understand, like I know he's a good person. I still didn't find the right key, and this external person was able to find the right key.

Other, Roy, there are some people that are not coachable. There are some people that, uh, again, develop their own personality, develop their own way of doing business that is very difficult to change. And, uh, despite the coaching, they continue to be in the same way, and it is very difficult to change the behavior.

Attitude is so important when you are in a team, especially in a high performing team like we are. We grow in a big way in the last four or five years in Vibram, and you really need to have people that are what we call with a [indecipherable], if I can say so, they need to really breathe and live the same values that the company has, that I have in driving this business forward. And if you don't, through also coaching, you are not able to adjust yourself, I don't think, uh, is a good way to proceed for both of us, for the company as well as the person.

[00:18:59] Roy Notowitz: Let's talk about that just a little bit more. So, how do you attract candidates who are deeply aligned with your brand's purpose and mission?

[00:19:07] Fabrizio Gamberini: Until 5, 6, 7 years ago, Vibram was considered as an industrial component, is a sole that you attach to performance shoes, to mountaineering shoes to climbing shoes, and you will get some results. And we're talking also in a very different way because we're talking mainly business to business. I think, uh, the values of Vibram along the way ended up evolving like everything else.

I think COVID was a moment in which we really started to look inside and realize if we want to drive the growth that we want to drive and we have the ability to drive because consumer, if you get them on a niche, if you get them behind the scenes, they love what we provide. So if we start to change the communication, if we start to change the way in which we deal with them, we'll be able to make much better traction.

And I think the values of the company ended up evolving in that way. So understanding that Vibram, it is all around the consumers and what consumer are looking for today. We are lucky because we have consumers that are actually helping our job. They go to the brands and they are like, "I love this shoe, but why there is no Vibram? Why? I want to run with Vibram."

So to find the right team, you need to be able to find people that, uh embrace, breathe, and understand that passion. This is one of the most interesting jobs that I had in my life. I deal with all the global corporations in footwear. I know who they are. I know the executives. I know the strategies. I know what they're coming up with. I know what they're failing with. I know who has good people. I know who has bad people. You, you are observing from a very neutral, because I work in the same way with Nike, I work in the same way with Arc'teryx, I work in the same way with the North Face, Timberland and New Balance, and I see who has a clear strategy moving forward, I see who has a clear set of direction and who doesn't.

So I need to get as part of my team, people that are, within brackets, interested to this. If I get the classic person that is working on a silos like a classic PLM that is working in a silos in his own or in our own company, sometimes they will have a hard time here because here you need to be able to have that kind of. 180 view that will help you.

[00:21:46] Roy Notowitz: You're kind of the perfect person for the job that you're in, just because of the way you build relationships. You know, I've seen it when we used to have a lot of trade shows and you'd always have a line of people wanting to talk to you. So...

[00:22:00] Fabrizio Gamberini: Yes, I've been very lucky that one is, uh is not a skill. That's one of the skills that you cannot teach. It is just sometimes I tell some of the people, some of the friends, like luckily enough, I'm able to talk with rocks. And this is so important for this business and is one of the values that you need to have when you work in Vibram because, uh, at the end of the story, if, uh, we are a pain in the butt for all these brands because we cost money. We sometimes slow down their process. We have our own ideas and we'll tell them how to change potentially, but we are doing this for them. It's important to have a good relationship with them because otherwise they would send you back. It is the trust level that we were talking before.

[00:22:42] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, that's a true partnership because there's always going to be so many challenges, right? Even in hiring, like when we partner with brands and when we've worked together, there's always challenges because there's all these variables that sometimes are not within your control or things happening that sort of influence the process, right?

[00:23:00] Fabrizio Gamberini: And that one is another set of skills that you need to have when we hire people, you need to have the ability to get people that can solve problems. Like, uh, we are a scrappy organization. I'm thinking right now in Vibram, again, forget HP or Nike, that are massive. Scrappy organization means that, uh, the person that comes in and needs to be able to deal with blockages, need to be able to solve problems, need to be able to really get in everyone's skin because you want to work toward a certain goal.

If you get people that are only passing problems, you're not going to go very far. And this is one of the things that when we do HRP, so HRP is one of the tools I got from Nike. So it's this idea of looking at the nine box where you have on the axis, you have, uh, on one side performance on the other side is potential. And you really drill down the entire organization and you start to plot these people inside these boxes where you have, uh, people with very high potential that are also performing incredibly well. And they are the people that potentially tomorrow we'll sit on my chair and you have instead people with an incredibly high potential, but you still don't have the key to unveil their potential.

That's where sometimes external coaching is important or finding for them the right spot in the organization, and this is a continuous job that we do from an HR standpoint. Uh, again, even if the organization is much smaller than the Nike one, this is one of the biggest priority for me. It's actually almost 50% of my time is really helping them to succeed because at the end of the story, if they're able to succeed, then I'm able to succeed.

[00:24:45] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, so Nike's really great at HRP or Human Resource Planning and succession, but now since you're at a smaller organization, i'm assuming that's a bigger part of your job, and so I'm curious, what would you say to someone who's thinking about going from a large company to a smaller company,

[00:25:07] Fabrizio Gamberini: Moving from a large corporation into a small corporation outside of the stuff that you have to do that is a lot, is a matter of, uh, flexibility, a matter of understanding the audience that you have. "Read the audience" is one of the mantras that, uh, lots of people are using. Read the audience before a presentation. Read the audience when you join a smaller company, I saw people, and this one was in eyewear, coming in the organization, I ended up hiring from the number one our company globally that is Luxottica, I ended up hiring the VP of sales for Marcolin and this person was incredibly good, amazing skills. He was just not able to remove the infrastructure that Luxottica created around him.

Same story for Nike people. I actually ended up hiring a couple of Nike people. One of them ended up doing incredibly well, actually is still there, and other people that come in with that kind of infrastructure where you have sometime a very defined job. It is very different when you come in a scrappier, smaller company. I think if you go in a startup or whatever where you really need to do everything, it's very important the, again, the attitude and the mentality. You are there. You are in charge, and it's not going to rain the business. You need to go out and you need to find it in some way. So the movement or the journey from a large corporation into a small one. It is very critical. Not everybody are able to do it, and you really need to think twice if you're able to manage the fact that sometimes there will be boxes that you need to ship. And not only big strategy in front of the board. Sometimes there are boxes that you need to pack and ship. Sometimes there is, uh, stuff that you need to do. And it's important to have that kind of mentality.

[00:27:04] Roy Notowitz: So you talk about getting out and seeing customers and spending time with retailers, being at events and trade shows. I know that's a big part of how you operate, and I'm assuming you're looking for that in candidates. Is that a skill that can be developed in a candidate?

[00:27:20] Fabrizio Gamberini: So there are two different ways. One, there are people that are already inclined to that, and it's just a matter of showing them kind of the way and having them more and more empowered to do so. So when you find the person that is a little bit, uh, let me call shy, but you see the potential, you go out with him or you go out with her and you show the way. But not because you want to establish yourself, because you want to show how easy in reality it is, because at the end, what we are doing in our job is helping some of the other brands to elevate their own product through what we provide.

And so the discussion, if it's well prepared, if it's well created. It's a very easy discussion. Yes, there is the portion related to the cost. There is the portion related to the whatever the process, but generally speaking, the more you go out with them, the more you show the way, the more they pick up. So definitely this is something that is easily, in my opinion, teachable. Generally speaking, I want this one to be a commercial organization oriented to the consumer. So it is a big lens for me when we hire people.

[00:28:36] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. That's great. That's great. So in thinking about your impact that you want to leave on teams and people and organizations, can you talk about how you think about your definition of success and how that's evolved over the course of your career?

[00:28:52] Fabrizio Gamberini: I think, uh, generally speaking, you always want to try to live not only better than what you ended up finding at the beginning, but also you want to contribute to the culture that is there.

Again, if I think about, uh my retail time in Nike when I was uh the retail GM, I think that having the passion to meet with all this team for the different stores and show them how important is every detail and how important is to listen the consumer and how important is to really understand what they're looking for so that your inventory, you can replenish the inventory in the right way, eliminating things that are not working, and instead doubling down in the one that are working is a mentality that you develop on the way, and when I left, I remember that they gave me a big poster with all the signature and little phrases. It is one of the things that I'm more proud of because the majority of the phrases, the notes that they wrote, "Fabri, it was amazing working with you. It was a pleasure working with you."

Like that kind of stuff tells you how they appreciated the passion that you bring. Into the business. And the same story in Marcolin, we went through a major acquisition, so we ended up acquiring another company through private equity, and I became the CEO for both of them with intent, of course, of synergies. So combining the two companies, but then ultimately we're trying to come out with one company. So you have to start to look at the different teams. You have to start to look at the marketplace, the products, and wherever, and really start to drill down, okay, this is the ultimate company that we want.

And by the way, the second company that we bought, they were struggling financially. Marcolin had private equity driving, so we were easily able to buy them, but the culture and everything else was a clash with the Marcolin. So all of this to say that sometimes it's so interesting to see how you can, uh, differentiate the approach and uh, really look after the core base value that you're trying to drive.

And for me, one that I learned, and this one I learned from Nike, period, and there is nobody else. Nike is a growth company. And the ability to always drive growth has been one of the main kind of mantras in my life. Like, we are not here to coast. We are here to grow and we are here to show. We are capable. We are here to look backward and say, look what we did. The drive that you continue to have, despite the problems and because you want to solve them, you want to try to deep dive until you will solve them and leverage on all the different knowledge that is inside and try to solve them so that you can turn the page.

[00:31:51] Roy Notowitz: Yeah. So what are you most excited about as you think about the future?

[00:31:58] Fabrizio Gamberini: The personal one is that I see myself sooner or later give it five, six, seven, whatever years under the palms in Miami. Sooner or later it will happen. because I think we did a lot and I want to find a way to do more in different aspects. One of my former boss, the one in Marcolin, pre acquisition, pre private equity, is always telling me, "Fabri, but you are still doing the same job. You're still a president, CEO, after so many years, how can you deal with all the people?" And I'm like, you know, I still like it. I love the challenge. For me, it's fun every day when you wake up, the moment in which you will not be fun, I just retire.

So I'm counting on the fact that I still have fun in front of me for a few years because I'm still in that wave. With all the love that I have for the industry and the product and Vibram.

[00:32:56] Roy Notowitz: You still have so much energy and passion for what you do. I can't imagine you any other way.

[00:33:02] Fabrizio Gamberini: That's what my wife is telling me, like, you know you're going to do it. No. And instead the same question applied to the current moment, like we are trying to develop the plan for the next five years. We hired some very good people that are helping to structure the future for Vibram itself, and there are specific priorities that are coming out.

And, uh, as a curious person, and I go back to when I started earlier. As a curious person, I'm not only ready to learn, but always interested to learn. And I think we have a very good opportunity to establish ourselves in a much bigger way than what we are today. And considering that growth is my mantra, considering that that's what we want to drive overall in the marketplace. I think some of these priority that are coming out that are complex to achieve, but simple to explain to the people who will help us to drive to the next step.

[00:34:04] Roy Notowitz: Yeah, I think anyone who's interested in keeping tabs on you, you do a pretty good job of posting regular updates on things that are happening on LinkedIn. You know, I would highly recommend following Fabrizio on LinkedIn or linking if you're not already. You always have great stories and usually you're talking about your passion for the brand or what's happening or some exciting things coming out.

[00:34:30] Fabrizio Gamberini: It is a good way for me also to, again, to live the passion that I have because at the end, Roy, all of this is passion this life.

[00:34:40] Roy Notowitz: Thanks again for coming on the podcast. You shared so many great insights and wisdom that I think our listeners will really appreciate and benefit from and be able to use in practice. So I just want to thank you again for your experience.

[00:34:52] Fabrizio Gamberini: Thank you. It was a great opportunity to chat with you and I thank you for this.

[00:34:58] Roy Notowitz: Thanks for tuning in to How I Hire. Visit howihire.com for more details about the show. How I Hire is created by Noto Group Executive Search to learn more about us visit notogroup.com. You can also sign up for our monthly job alert newsletter there and find additional job search strategy resources, and content on leadership and hiring.

This podcast was produced by Anna McClain. To learn more about her and her team's work, visit aomcclain.com.

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